What others had to say about Ross Jeffries after that incident,
and poor service in general:

re: poor customer service, and a general contempt of customers.

You have been warned...



>From formhandle@aol.com Thu Sep 23 19:12:38 1999
From: formhandle@aol.com (Formhandle)
Newsgroups: alt.seduction.fast
Subject: Re: Read how Maniac got thrown off Ross Jeffries SS List!!
Lines: 50
NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder05.news.aol.com
X-Admin: news@aol.com
Date: 23 Sep 1999 19:40:11 GMT
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
Message-ID: <19990923154011.06636.00002129@ng-ch1.aol.com>
Xref: news-f.iadfw.net alt.seduction.fast:59725
Status: RO

maniac_high states:

> Not the kind of outing report I ever wanted to 
> post... but...

Maniac, I'm glad you posted this and it's too bad that the situation happened
as you described.  Frankly, although I've known about SS for a while and only
recently came to find this group, I can't imagine ever wanting to pay Ross for
his materials after his statement to you.  It makes me happy I took the effort
to create my own FREE site for this group since that in itself is worth way
more to me than any kit I could ever buy.

I think the next free tool I add (after the Registry) is going to be an
anal-free mailing list for PUAs.  What does everyone say to that?  It might
have to be a moderated list (for spam-filtering), depends on certain factors. 
Either way, who the hell wants to deal with the crap Maniac described?  I
understand that the SS list has strict rules in place but the way he was
treated (as a paying customer no less) was uncalled for.

To Mr. Jeffries:

Although I think your materials are probably very useful to a lot of people, I
personally would not be comfortable handing you any money for any products
given the elightening situation just documented and described by Maniac.  It's
really too bad because I was hoping the free site I've been putting together
for the users of this group would be something beneficial to your cause (yes, I
see it as a cause and not just a slimy, greedy venture).  Now, I see, that I'd
rather just continue working on my site for the followers of this group as a
free GENERAL service for guys wanting to become better at meeting and
attracting the opposite sex.  The words "Speed Seduction" and specific
references to your products and Web site will henceforth be removed from my Web
site (after I get home tonight).  It's too bad since I imagine you would have
eventually received a plethory of additional customers with the added public
awareness provided by my own site as well as Maniac's - you see, I'm a
professional Webmaster by trade and on a whim can pretty much garner hordes of
pre-qualified traffic to any web site.  I know what things drive traffic, and I
know what things drive customers.  It's too bad that although you're likely an
NLP expert with a lot to offer, you've managed to give off a serious "I don't
care about my customers" vibe.

You can correct this recent development by publicly apologizing to Maniac (on
this group) and re-instating his list status.  Only then will I feel
comfortable continuing to make FREE mention of your products and services on my
Web site.  I realize that supplicating to this request is likely beyond you're
mantra but karma is playing a *bigger* role here than mantra.

This request is asked in kind, and I assuradely hope it is taken that way.  We
are all here for cooperation and mutual support, not bickering.

~jay

>From tupac_chopra@my-deja.com Thu Sep 23 19:14:41 1999
From: tupac_chopra@my-deja.com (Tupac Chopra)
Newsgroups: alt.seduction.fast
Subject: Re: Read how Maniac got thrown off Ross Jeffries SS List!!
Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1999 19:50:05 GMT
Organization: Illuminati, Inc.
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Message-ID: <37ea79b5.39738216@news.shadow.net>
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Status: RO


For a while I've been getting the feeling that the SS "scene" was
morphing into a subculture like others I used to be involved in.
This whole incident certainly doesn't disabuse me of that impression.

It seems that some SS'ers, too, are not immune from the usual
favoritism, pecking order, power lusting, ego-tripping, elitism and
ASS-KISSING that are common in groups that revolve around some idea or
doctrine that makes them "special" and unique.  It's common in
pseudo-cults where the scene turns into a mutual admiration society
that pats itself on the back for being so much "better" than the
"common masses".  (SS also has it's fair share of unique words and
phrases that mean nothing to non-SS'ers but serve to distinguish and
insulate themselves from other people).  

Personally, I think SS has something of value, but since it (like any
other money-making venture) is meant to line the pockets of its
creator, there is always going to be a self-serving bias to choose
doing whatever keeps the "game going", whatever "protects the baby",
even if such actions don't do anything to further seduction methods.

Maniac, you've done a lot here on this list, more than most people...

I suspect that since the only members on the SS list are those who
have purchased the course, there is going to be little critical
evaluation of something they spent serious bucks on (a little thing
called "post-decisional cognitive dissonance").  Maybe I'm talking out
of my ass here, but I suspect that there is not a useful *generalized*
discussion of seduction techniques (as we have on a.s.f.), but rather
a bunch of "stories" that read like sales pitches for the product
they're pushing.  The recent David Shade report -- even if true --
sounds like a sales pitch, it runs the gamut of specialized SS
techniques.  I was half expecting to see at the end, "And if you want
results like these, or want to find out what the 'IC' and 'BJ'
patterns are all about, send check or money order to blah blah blah."

Some people who are FOR REAL, who have been in the trenches, like
MrSex4UNYC, have pointed out many times how people get so latched on
to the SS "method" that they're blind to the obvious signals a chick
is sending out that she wants to fuck, but they overdo the whole SS
thing and overshoot their goal.  How likely do you think it is that
someone on the SS list is going to say "You know, I got laid and
everything, but looking back at my PU, and after talking to the chick
who's here sucking my dick, I realized she wanted to fuck as soon as
she heard my voice and I reminded her of her ex-BF!  All those
patterns and interrupts didn't really contribute JACK SHIT to my
success!!!"  Not too likely, eh?  That's why a public forum like
a.s.f. is so much better.

So, to recap,  FUCK Ross Jeffries (although I do give him credit), and
FUCK all his ass-kissing cronies.


>-------------------------------ROSS JEFFRIES REPLIED

>>Dear Mr. Jeffries,
>>
>>I am one of your SS customers, and spent approximately $1000
>>on your products earlier this year. My issue is with the
>>SS-list subscription, which was included in the purchase.
>
>
>  Get over yourself. Your outburst about this on the list is ground, in
>itself, for removal. This is a PRIVATE matter that should  have been
>handled that way.
>
>  Further, I don't appreciate threats or demands or statements about
>what
>you "EXPECT".  I don't respond to such bullshit; being a customer does
>NOT
>mean I will kiss your ass.

Fine, let him act like a dick.  Not very good business practice, but
hey, to each his own.  He'll reap what he sows, especially when word
gets around as it is doing here.

>P.S I think your website is NONSENSE and I think you don't have much of
>a
>clue at all about SS. 

Oh, this is rich.  Translation:  You're effort to collect and compile
all of the best posts and wisdom from a.s.f. have created a resource
that has seperated the wheat from the chaff in my system, exposed it's
faults, and in addition, has systematized it with some of the best
words of wisdom from real PUA's into something that far surpasses my
limited system.  Furthermore, your site is free for all.  Since I can
feel it biting into my profits and taking away customers, I am going
to childishly insult you and your web page by telling you you don't
have a clue about SS (as if that mattered to anyone but me).  

> I FULLY support Riker on this...

Translation:  In my Hitler-like chain-of-command, I will maintain the
illusion that me and my sycophants, er, subordinates, are "elite"
masters of the PUA's to whom you must fork over cash and respect.
This power-trip of mine feels good since I never got laid much when I
was younger, and now I'm making up for my limping ego any way I can.


Dude, thank god you got your rep here and can back it up.  If Joe Blow
posted this same complaint, he would get flamed hardcore.

TC

__________________________________
Patronize these joints:
Self-Liberator's Digest [www.maths.qmw.ac.uk/~ade]
IROOT:NOT [www.starbuilders.org/irootnot/index.html]
Transhumanism [http://www.aleph.se/Trans]
DNA Dimension [www.deoxy.org/deoxy.htm]
__________________________________
e v  o   l   u    t    i    o     n      N      O     W!


>From bgates@yahoo.com Thu Sep 23 19:16:12 1999
From: Bill 
Newsgroups: alt.seduction.fast
Subject: Re: Read how Maniac got thrown off Ross Jeffries SS List!!
Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1999 22:09:04 +0100
Organization: -
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Status: RO


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Now I know what SS really stands for ... I'd go for the full $1000 refund if I
were you.

maniac_high wrote:

> Read how Maniac got thrown off Ross's SS list!!!
>
> Not the kind of outing report I ever wanted to
> post... but...
>
> [Maniac's confrontation with "Riker" on the Ross
> Jeffries SS-List, ... Ross lets us all down....]
>
> You be the judge, I let the facts stand for themselves
> and dont plan to comment more on any of this [I am
> flabbergasted, and have no idea what more I could say..]..
>
> here is all the details below, nothing
> excepted (I blank out my personal address/info for this
> website though).
>
> Personally, now knowing what I know, I wouldn't buy
> anything more from the man, I hope you wont either.
> This is so fucking dissappointing I cannot believe
> it...

etcetera


>From NightHawk_007@webtv.net Thu Sep 23 22:06:50 1999
From: NightHawk_007@webtv.net (the Incredible Hawk)
Newsgroups: alt.seduction.fast
Subject: Re: Read how Maniac got thrown off Ross Jeffries SS List!!
Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1999 21:17:27 -0500 (EST)
Organization: WebTV Subscriber
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Maniac, you have my support. I had actually reconsidered the purchase of
a BHSC after being publically insulted and asked to leave, but I now
have decided against it. Permanently. We all know now how his business
operates. Let's all refrain from using the term "SS" (use "NLP") and
refrain from directing people to his website.




NightHawk

>From Jetman525@oohay.com Thu Sep 23 23:24:10 1999
From: "John C. Ryan, Jr." 
Newsgroups: alt.seduction.fast
Subject: Re: Read how Maniac got thrown off Ross Jeffries SS List!!
Date: Fri, 24 Sep 1999 00:10:32 -0400
Organization: ---[     *     ]---
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Ryker wrote:
> 
> Well, you guys can judge for yourselves. Frankly, I am not that
> concerned about what any individuial person thinks.
> 

Perhaps you should be. Frankly, I don't know of many businesses that can
keep their customers, without treating them well. When someone pays you
for a product or service, you owe them two things. 1) Good service. 2)
Loyalty. 

The only way a business can do this is to remember that customers are
their livelihood. When you forget that, your customers won't.

I vote with my wallet. People who do me, or others this way lose more
business than they imagine. 

Think of what might have happened if Maniac had posted glowing praise of
your excellent customer service, and your willingness to rectify a
misunderstanding and oversight. That would have been like free
advertising. Word of mouth goes a long way.

-- 

              Jack 

 <----------<< =+= >>---------->

Enjoying the Peace and Tranquility.

    (Reverse "oohay" to reply.)

>From outfoxxxing_the__foxxxes@juno.com Fri Sep 24 04:23:06 1999
Cc: Odious@home.com
Date: Fri, 24 Sep 1999 04:47:48 -0400
Subject: Re: Read how Maniac got thrown off Ross Jeffries SS List!!
Message-ID: <19990924.044753.-242789.57.Outfoxxxing_The__Foxxxes@juno.com>
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<---------I'm surprised anyone here will buy Ross's products after
reading about this.  Businesses which act like they are doing their
customers a favor don't tend to last very long.  


<-----------The person was following the rules of the list and was
MISTAKENLY removed from it.  There are better ways to treat someone who
spends A THOUSAND DOLLARS on a product. 


>From random8645@aol.com Fri Sep 24 22:16:58 1999
From: random8645@aol.com (Random8645)
Newsgroups: alt.seduction.fast
Subject: Re: Read how Maniac got thrown off Ross Jeffries SS List!!
Lines: 9
NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder05.news.aol.com
X-Admin: news@aol.com
Date: 24 Sep 1999 18:43:54 GMT
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
Message-ID: <19990924144354.19602.00001884@ng-fk1.aol.com>
Xref: news-f.iadfw.net alt.seduction.fast:59814

DUDE!!! you act surprised that someone who calls himself "the chairman of the
broads" and "the guru of ginch" turns out to be an immature moron. 

of course ross is an immature moron. he shouyld just consider himself lucky he
has ray and steele to pick on, they make him look normal and welladjusted in
comparison. but ross is a sad bitter jackass. 

get your money back and just be thankful, you got to use all of rosses stuff
and didn't pay a DIME. you came out fine, the one who lost out is ROSS

>From random8645@aol.com Fri Sep 24 22:17:16 1999
From: random8645@aol.com (Random8645)
Newsgroups: alt.seduction.fast
Subject: Re: Read how Maniac got thrown off Ross Jeffries SS List!!
Lines: 6
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X-Admin: news@aol.com
Date: 24 Sep 1999 18:46:02 GMT
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
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Xref: news-f.iadfw.net alt.seduction.fast:59815

<<<---------I'm surprised anyone here will buy Ross's products after
reading about this.  Businesses which act like they are doing their
customers a favor don't tend to last very long.  >>

it is a sad day when ray posts something like this and he is COMPLETELY
RIGHT!!!

>From formhandle@aol.com Sat Sep 25 00:05:29 1999
From: formhandle@aol.com (Formhandle)
Newsgroups: alt.seduction.fast
Subject: Re: Read how Maniac got thrown off Ross Jeffries SS List!!
Lines: 28
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maniac_high added:

> The thing was that riker, without even contacting me
> first, himself publicly posted to the everyone on the list a message 
> slamming me and saying he was cancelling my account.

This particularly is what immediately got me leaning in your corner - I think
people tend to skim too much and not read the finer details.  This detail did
not slip past me as I was reading your post.  For Ryker to then state that he
later cut you off completely for posting an admin-related message to the list
was WAY out of line since he initiated that himself.  He broke Ross' rules
first and at the same time embarrased you publicly.  Not only that, he was
completely off-base on the e-mail issue in the first place.

Yes, I too have known many "admins" in my time.  Yes, as people have stated,
they can be ruthless, by-the-book a-holes when it comes to putting people in
line.  But the way your were treated was UNCALLED FOR.
mselves said.. there's not much more to be 
said really..



------------------- THE END -------------------------------

Draw your own conclusions...

Maniac